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{Request} Please look into Shield Tanks

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Joseph Ridgeson Cactus Rats 25	Posted - 2013.03.31 19:30:00 - [1] - Quote First off, seriously? The Caldari, the people that name their ships after birds/animals (Raven, Eagle, Badger) or mythological beings (Phoenix, Leviathan, Tengu) named their Militia, Standard, and Advanced HAV's after an ancient dagger, viking sword, and a Persian battle axe? I suspect that Amarr would have theirs named Free Thought or the Minmatar would actually build a completed HAV... Gunnlogi: 2,600 Shields (22 recharge per second) 1,000 Armor 330 CPU 1,805 PG 5 High Powered Slots 2 Low Powered Slots. Madrugar: 900 Shields (9 recharge per seconds) 2,900 Armor 210 CPU 2,690 PG 2 High Powered Slots 5 Low Powered Slots A powerful shield and a host of High Powered Slots to assist in making the shield stronger. However, the lack of a suitable power plant in the Gunnlogi causes a truly crippling weakness. LetGÇÖs assume the best Extender/Plates and best Booster/Repairer with just average blasters with 5/5 Circuitry and Combat Engineering: Gunnlogi Heavy Clarity Ward Shield Booster: 76 CPU / 608 PG Heavy Azeotropic Ward Shield Extender: 71 CPU / 646 PG 80 GJ Blasters with 2 20 GJ Blasters: 56 CPU / 1,200 PG Total: 203 CPU / 2,454 PG out of 412 CPU / 2,256 PG Madrugar Heavy Efficient Armor Repair Unit: 25 CPU / 1,064 PG 180MM Reinforced Polycrystalline Plates: 24 CPU / 1,102 PG 80 GJ Blasters with 2 20 GJ Blasters: 56 CPU / 1,200 PG Total: 105 CPU / 3,366 PG out of 262 CPU / 3,362 This is where the Madrugar pulls out a dirty trick. In order to use the 180MM Reinforced Polycrystalline Plates, a Pilot must at least have Armor Upgrades at level 3. This reduces the PG usage of Plates by 9%. The real numbers become: Madrugar Heavy Efficient Armor Repair Unit: 25 CPU / 1,064 PG 180MM Reinforced Polycrystalline Plates: 24 CPU / 1,002 PG 80 GJ Blasters with 2 20 GJ Blasters: 56 CPU / 1,200 PG Total: 105 CPU / 3,266 PG out of 262 CPU / 3,362 The Gunnlogi does require Shield Enhancement 3 but this reduces the use of CPU, something that the Gunnlogi is swimming in, resulting in an extra 7 CPU. This means that, unlike the Gunnlogi, the Madrugar actually has 2 free slots to work with when the Gunnlogi either needs a PGU or 2 PDS's. The biggest problem, however, is the Gunnlogi's lackluster defenses. Level 4 Shield Control and level 5 Field Mechanics (getting Shield Control to 4 is 50% more expensive than getting FM to 5) with the best Enhancer and 2 PDS I's amount to 5,622 Shield / 1,249 Armor. A Madruggar with level 5 Field Mechanics and 4 Shield Control with the best Plate runs at 1079 Shield / 6,752 Armor. The nail in the coffin is that Armor Hardeners are infinitely better than Shield Hardeners. The 'Surge' Shield Reinforcement reduces damage by 30% with a 10 second active time and a 30 second cooldown. It is the best Shield Hardener. The Carapace Armor Hardener reduces damage by 25% with a 45 second active time and a 15 second cooldown. It is the best Armor Hardener. I love the Raven. I adore the Drake. When I decided to try out Tanks, I naturally found myself drawn towards the Caldari. I was kind of saddened to discover that the Madruggar is so much more powerful at, well, killing and not dying. Please consider modifying how the Shield Tanks operate. Also, missiles! Be well.
Joseph Ridgeson Cactus Rats 27	Posted - 2013.03.31 23:11:00 - [2] - Quote I was just looking at flat numbers. Yes, the Gunnlogi can turn much better than the Madrugar. There is still a problem in the fact that the Gunnlogi is incredibly fragile compared to the Madruggar. I have found it not to be a fair trade in losing so much survivability for maneuverability. Be well.
Joseph Ridgeson Cactus Rats 27	Posted - 2013.03.31 23:46:00 - [3] - Quote BOZ MR wrote: Why don't you add how much mobility you have with gunloggi over madrugar? Or the Homing Ability of AV nades? Or the Militia swarms that deals 1K damage to armor even with hardners? Or the ability of swarms to turn around and follow you when you turn corners? Or the Gunloggi's resist to both AV nade and Swarms? Or why do you think maintaining nearly all wheel of active equipment is easy to maintain your madrugar whereas you just need heatsink and Shield Booster on gunloggi? The homing ability of AV Grenades is just as big of a problem for Gunnlogis as it is for Madruggars. Armor does take more damage from Explosives than Shield Tanks. This is true. To my knowledge, Swarms do 80 / 120 to Shields / Armor. This doesn't matter too much, from what I have seen, as the Hardeners of Armor generally keep you rolling. Swarm Launcher's ability to turn at angles that a protractor would be proud of hurts Gunnlogis the same. It doesn't matter too much that they just do more damage to Madrugars. Yes, the Gunnlogi is naturally more resistant to Explosive Damage (Grenades and Swarm Launchers). Honestly, I do not think it is difficult keeping the Active Hardeners online. I run with three and I alternate it so that at least 2 are online at any one moment. I am not good player; I think I would qualify as decent on a good day. I just activate the first one, note how much time is left on the battlefield. 15 seconds later, I fire the next. 15 seconds later, I fire the last. I then just fire them on cooldown. It is not difficult in the slightest. Let's take that strategy and add in the Diminishing Returns in EVE. I am assuming they are the same for DUST: 1st = 1 2nd = 0.8691 3rd = 0.5706 4th = 0.2830 So at any one time, 2 Hardeners are online. This gives 46.7275% resistance and on the times where are three are running, which I believe is for 30 seconds every three cycles, the resistances go up 60.9925%. Even taking the extra damage from explosive compounds, Armor Tanks take less damage from AV than Shield does. Sure, it does require more micromanagement but you actually get something out of it for keeping tabs on the Hardeners. Shield Tanks don't have that. The only advantage they have is that they accelerate quickly and turn on a dinner plate rather than a dinner table. If you take the Shield Tank with 2 Flat Resistances and 1 Hardener, it works out like: 2 Resistances (15% each) = 1% + (15 x .8691) = 28.0365 For 10 seconds, Hardener gives 30%. I believe separate bonuses stack, so 58.0365% In those regards, the Shield Tank only has more resistances if all three Hardeners are not online. Disclaimer: Joseph is an idiot when it comes to knowing how DUST and EVE add their bonuses overall. He is also an idiot in most other regards. Be well.
Joseph Ridgeson Cactus Rats 27	Posted - 2013.03.31 23:47:00 - [4] - Quote And, of course, thank you for your response. Be well.
Joseph Ridgeson Cactus Rats 32	Posted - 2013.04.03 21:54:00 - [5] - Quote Also, Armor Tanks don't lose half their life when they bump into something larger than a pebble. I swear I have lost more Gunnlogis to LAV's than Swarm Launchers. Be well.
Joseph Ridgeson Cactus Rats 32	Posted - 2013.04.03 23:01:00 - [6] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: though i think shield tanks could use some love, it would only be a little love. they're: 1.) faster 2.) higher DAM 3.) passively heal 4.) boosters take 0 time to warm up (seems petty until your in an armor tank) i don't care what you heard NO armor tank "easily" survives an OB it pushes the armor to it's max. shield tanks can usually can out run OBs though again it isn't easy. IGÇÖd say a small pg boost is in order but nothing too extreme and nerf the bump damage. They aren't really faster, not passively at least. They accelerate faster and their Extenders don't slow them down slightly. They are capable of putting in Turbines and Nanofibers in MUCH easier though. I am not completely sold on higher damage. Sure they can fire damage modules without screwing over their EHP as much but the Marauder skill could help tip the balance here. Of course, it is not Shield Tanks fault that Missiles are currently weak. Even then, an Armor Tank could rip out a Hardener or two to throw in flat enhancements. The Passive Heal is pretty lackluster. With maxed Shield Boost Systems, it amounts to 25.3 Health Per Second. A Heavy Clarity Ward Shield Booster gives 328 a pulse for 5 seconds, totaling 27.3 HPS overall. The Heavy Efficient Armor Repair Unit does 414 every pulse for 15 seconds (I think), totaling 69 HPS overall. If you were willing to run both side by side forever, the Shield Tanks wins by 8.63. Not super amazing. The Booster thing doesn't really bother me. I think it is totally fair to have less NOW versus a little bit more later. From my experience, Orbitals are deadly but are far, far easier to survive in a Madruggar versus a Gunnlogi. Be well.

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